Meeting - demo_p4p

- That's just me.

- That's just me.

- That's just you, but--

- That's just you, but--

- I guess everyone can turn on captions.

- I guess everyone can turn on captions.

If you click that brain in the top left,

If you click that brain in the top left,

top right corner of your screen.

top right corner of your screen.

- I'm not supported in this browser.

- I'm not supported in this browser.

- Turn on live captions.

- Turn on live captions.

- What browser are you using?

- What browser are you using?

Firefox.

Firefox.

- Firefox, yeah.

- Firefox, yeah.

- You should use Brave.

- You should use Brave.

- Yeah, I have Brave.

- Yeah, I have Brave.

Let me get in that.

Let me get in that.

- Yeah, Brave will be easier.

- Yeah, Brave will be easier.

Okay, cool.

Okay, cool.

Side tangent over, quick introductions maybe.

Side tangent over, quick introductions maybe.

So Brian and I have been doing a bunch of work

So Brian and I have been doing a bunch of work

with Michelle on the Cosmo Local Foundation.

with Michelle on the Cosmo Local Foundation.

Rory, Silvana, and Oliver have been doing Gaia Commons,

Rory, Silvana, and Oliver have been doing Gaia Commons,

Gaia OS.

Gaia OS.

I met them with Michelle

I met them with Michelle

at the World Systemic Forum this summer.

at the World Systemic Forum this summer.

Rock is a longtime Michelle collaborator,

Rock is a longtime Michelle collaborator,

and we also work together

and we also work together

in the Crypto Commons Association.

in the Crypto Commons Association.

So all awesome hardcore commoners here,

So all awesome hardcore commoners here,

everyone with their hearts in mind in the right place.

everyone with their hearts in mind in the right place.

Come down, Rory.

Come down, Rory.

- The recording is on.

- The recording is on.

- Oh, great.

- Oh, great.

Oh no, I thought that was Michelle.

Oh no, I thought that was Michelle.

We've got two Brains.

We've got two Brains.

Cool.

Cool.

So yes, the reason we're meeting today

So yes, the reason we're meeting today

is the discussion of this grant opportunity.

is the discussion of this grant opportunity.

So there is a Commons for Culture grant.

So there is a Commons for Culture grant.

Michelle got in touch with them

Michelle got in touch with them

through the Nova Iskra Group,

through the Nova Iskra Group,

which I believe is like a Bulgarian nonprofit

which I believe is like a Bulgarian nonprofit

or Commons organization.

or Commons organization.

Michelle basically has himself

Michelle basically has himself

and potentially two others as like small research stipend

and potentially two others as like small research stipend

to participate in this grant call.

to participate in this grant call.

The document, maybe,

The document, maybe,

I think we should all have a link.

I think we should all have a link.

I can find it, but if someone has the link handy,

I can find it, but if someone has the link handy,

maybe just drop it in the chat.

maybe just drop it in the chat.

The Google Doc.

The Google Doc.

And basically the reason I wanna get everyone together

And basically the reason I wanna get everyone together

is so I'm not a bottleneck to making this happen.

is so I'm not a bottleneck to making this happen.

'Cause neither Brian nor I can put our names on,

'Cause neither Brian nor I can put our names on,

presumably because Brian is English,

presumably because Brian is English,

which got Brexit and I am Canadian

which got Brexit and I am Canadian

and these need to be EU individuals.

and these need to be EU individuals.

So I've had the brief conversation with all of you

So I've had the brief conversation with all of you

about your work in the past with Michelle,

about your work in the past with Michelle,

your work now in the Commons,

your work now in the Commons,

and just wanted to get everyone on the same page

and just wanted to get everyone on the same page

so we can have a few day quick turnaround

so we can have a few day quick turnaround

of getting the right information over to the grant people

of getting the right information over to the grant people

so we can move forward with this.

so we can move forward with this.

And maybe I will be quiet and open the floor

And maybe I will be quiet and open the floor

for whoever wants to say more stuff.

for whoever wants to say more stuff.

- More stuff.

- More stuff.

- I'll post a link in the video call chat.

- I'll post a link in the video call chat.

Is that a good place?

Is that a good place?

- That's good.

- That's good.

- Good enough, there you go.

- Good enough, there you go.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- So being somewhat less goofy,

- So being somewhat less goofy,

I spoke briefly with Michelle this morning.

I spoke briefly with Michelle this morning.

He has introduced me to the project coordinator,

He has introduced me to the project coordinator,

a lady by the name of Nana, this morning,

a lady by the name of Nana, this morning,

and I'm having a call with her tomorrow.

and I'm having a call with her tomorrow.

Time is yet to be decided,

Time is yet to be decided,

and I'll just fucking scope what's going on

and I'll just fucking scope what's going on

and report back to the group,

and report back to the group,

because at the moment it's pretty fuzzy, basically.

because at the moment it's pretty fuzzy, basically.

And I don't think she knows exactly

And I don't think she knows exactly

what's coming her way, if I look at this group.

what's coming her way, if I look at this group.

And I don't know what she's looking for,

And I don't know what she's looking for,

what she might need, and what the process would look like.

what she might need, and what the process would look like.

Michelle has actually mentioned three researchers,

Michelle has actually mentioned three researchers,

as opposed to two.

as opposed to two.

So again, I'll talk with her tomorrow morning,

So again, I'll talk with her tomorrow morning,

or at least tomorrow at some point,

or at least tomorrow at some point,

and write back to everybody else on Telegram,

and write back to everybody else on Telegram,

and I'll write a special message on Signal to Brian,

and I'll write a special message on Signal to Brian,

just in case.

just in case.

- Thank you, I appreciate it.

- Thank you, I appreciate it.

Looks like Silvana's dropping out.

Looks like Silvana's dropping out.

- She froze there and looked really funny

- She froze there and looked really funny

with her finger sticking in the window.

with her finger sticking in the window.

- And now we have two.

- And now we have two.

- Now we have two, they're only better than one.

- Now we have two, they're only better than one.

- Rory, just quickly, your call with Michelle,

- Rory, just quickly, your call with Michelle,

did he have any answers?

did he have any answers?

Had he spoken to them about whether

Had he spoken to them about whether

he asked about what EU means?

he asked about what EU means?

Like if you have a VAT number,

Like if you have a VAT number,

or you have a European residence, or any of that,

or you have a European residence, or any of that,

had he actually managed to get in touch with them?

had he actually managed to get in touch with them?

- He did not mention any of that stuff, you know?

- He did not mention any of that stuff, you know?

What he mentioned was the fact that he had floated

What he mentioned was the fact that he had floated

the idea of some of our crazy coming in,

the idea of some of our crazy coming in,

particularly around the kind of tech stack

particularly around the kind of tech stack

and the governance components, right?

and the governance components, right?

And then saying that, you know,

And then saying that, you know,

yeah, there would be resources made available

yeah, there would be resources made available

and somehow, you know, we as a group, this group here,

and somehow, you know, we as a group, this group here,

kind of coordinating in terms of getting

kind of coordinating in terms of getting

to some kind of collective funding logic,

to some kind of collective funding logic,

whatever that might look like.

whatever that might look like.

And yes, there may be three names on, you know,

And yes, there may be three names on, you know,

on the piece of the paper for those specific roles.

on the piece of the paper for those specific roles.

- There's only one I do in the work.

- There's only one I do in the work.

(laughs)

(laughs)

And that's a jet.

And that's a jet.

So, you know, basically he was saying, you know,

So, you know, basically he was saying, you know,

let's try and capture resources for getting this work done

let's try and capture resources for getting this work done

and figure out the details later.

and figure out the details later.

That was the bottom line as far as I could understand it.

That was the bottom line as far as I could understand it.

- Thanks.

- Thanks.

Yeah, and maybe I could add something,

Yeah, and maybe I could add something,

just Jeff's big on the AI,

just Jeff's big on the AI,

but in a call with Michelle,

but in a call with Michelle,

so I think there's gonna be a bit of face to face

so I think there's gonna be a bit of face to face

and that's part of the value in this that, you know,

and that's part of the value in this that, you know,

we managed to onboard a whole bunch of actual projects,

we managed to onboard a whole bunch of actual projects,

real world projects.

real world projects.

And so whoever does wanna step in,

And so whoever does wanna step in,

hopefully it's a person who wants to be the front person

hopefully it's a person who wants to be the front person

who is excited to meet all of these on the ground projects.

who is excited to meet all of these on the ground projects.

And then, you know, I would do it if I can,

And then, you know, I would do it if I can,

but I'm not sure if I can.

but I'm not sure if I can.

And then we're gonna have a bunch of technical stuff

And then we're gonna have a bunch of technical stuff

running in the background.

running in the background.

So I think we're looking for, yeah, the front people

So I think we're looking for, yeah, the front people

and that it's not as simple as just putting a name

and that it's not as simple as just putting a name

on the list, because another thing Michelle mentioned

on the list, because another thing Michelle mentioned

is that in prior EU projects,

is that in prior EU projects,

there are penalties for non-completion.

there are penalties for non-completion.

So if you kind of don't commit to going the full three years,

So if you kind of don't commit to going the full three years,

which I think it's three years, right, this project,

which I think it's three years, right, this project,

then it turns out to be a liability.

then it turns out to be a liability.

So just something to keep in mind.

So just something to keep in mind.

- Yeah, again, I'll try and get more actual details tomorrow

- Yeah, again, I'll try and get more actual details tomorrow

because I mean, yes, there is just like five kind of

because I mean, yes, there is just like five kind of

rough work packages or I don't know what the exact term

rough work packages or I don't know what the exact term

they use, like various activity or whatever.

they use, like various activity or whatever.

And some of those are definitely more kind of front facing,

And some of those are definitely more kind of front facing,

right, and others aren't, you know.

right, and others aren't, you know.

So, and depending on which work package you're involved in,

So, and depending on which work package you're involved in,

that may be more or less of an expectation.

that may be more or less of an expectation.

And then, yeah, the timeframes, levels of actual engagement,

And then, yeah, the timeframes, levels of actual engagement,

et cetera, et cetera, like these are really just wide open

et cetera, et cetera, like these are really just wide open

at the moment.

at the moment.

It's really difficult to get a read on it.

It's really difficult to get a read on it.

- Okay, so you're going to go and gather that information

- Okay, so you're going to go and gather that information

whenever you can by talking to this lady.

whenever you can by talking to this lady.

From that, we can assess and regroup

From that, we can assess and regroup

and see what's actually needed and move forward from there.

and see what's actually needed and move forward from there.

- That sounds like a good idea, and maybe in the meantime,

- That sounds like a good idea, and maybe in the meantime,

could we just take like a second to understand

could we just take like a second to understand

who XROC and Weekend are for me

who XROC and Weekend are for me

because the other ones I know, and since those are pseudonyms,

because the other ones I know, and since those are pseudonyms,

if you want to be addressed as that, that's fine by me,

if you want to be addressed as that, that's fine by me,

but just so I know.

but just so I know.

- And generally, like we can use the opportunity.

- And generally, like we can use the opportunity.

We can also introduce maybe ourselves, exactly,

We can also introduce maybe ourselves, exactly,

unless you guys already know who we are.

unless you guys already know who we are.

- Yeah, great idea.

- Yeah, great idea.

Maybe quick hello's for everybody.

Maybe quick hello's for everybody.

- I'm loving though the whole hitting the trail running,

- I'm loving though the whole hitting the trail running,

Jeff, just like right in there, forget about introductions,

Jeff, just like right in there, forget about introductions,

but since these are hardcore companies in Europe,

but since these are hardcore companies in Europe,

I really want to know where you are.

I really want to know where you are.

- I know it, I know it.

- I know it, I know it.

Yeah, just also aside, no, I just had a call with Michelle,

Yeah, just also aside, no, I just had a call with Michelle,

he's gonna jump on from his phone if he can.

he's gonna jump on from his phone if he can.

- Okay, nice.

- Okay, nice.

I'm just doing the transitive friendship thing.

I'm just doing the transitive friendship thing.

I know you will all be friends, even though you're not yet,

I know you will all be friends, even though you're not yet,

but yes, feel free to have a quick word of intro.

but yes, feel free to have a quick word of intro.

I gave kind of a blitz intro at the beginning,

I gave kind of a blitz intro at the beginning,

but if anybody wants to say quick hello,

but if anybody wants to say quick hello,

'cause I realize most people here

'cause I realize most people here

probably haven't seen each other before.

probably haven't seen each other before.

- Hi, Michelle, by the way.

- Hi, Michelle, by the way.

Maybe Sylvana can take it away with the intros.

Maybe Sylvana can take it away with the intros.

- Sorry, also.

- Sorry, also.

- Nice to see you're here, Michelle.

- Nice to see you're here, Michelle.

- Yes, good to have you here, Michelle.

- Yes, good to have you here, Michelle.

I hope you're okay.

I hope you're okay.

- Yeah, I'm okay, yeah.

- Yeah, I'm okay, yeah.

- Yeah, do you want to, like if you want to speak,

- Yeah, do you want to, like if you want to speak,

but I don't want to push you if you're...

but I don't want to push you if you're...

- No, I just had a bit of a hard time,

- No, I just had a bit of a hard time,

so I'm just very tired in the evening for the moment,

so I'm just very tired in the evening for the moment,

but so I took my phone, which I never do,

but so I took my phone, which I never do,

and I'm lying on my bed, so...

and I'm lying on my bed, so...

But I can't participate, no problem.

But I can't participate, no problem.

- Amazing.

- Amazing.

Good to have you here, and yeah, my best wishes.

Good to have you here, and yeah, my best wishes.

I didn't get a chance yet to text you,

I didn't get a chance yet to text you,

unlike all my good... - This is your super good club.

unlike all my good... - This is your super good club.

- My good male friends.

- My good male friends.

Did better.

Did better.

- Okay, so we were just like giving super short introductions.

- Okay, so we were just like giving super short introductions.

I work with Oliver and Rory,

I work with Oliver and Rory,

so can I just know the names?

so can I just know the names?

Brian is one, right?

Brian is one, right?

And the other one, Jeff?

And the other one, Jeff?

- Rock.

- Rock.

- Brian and Rock, do you know anything about Gaya Commons

- Brian and Rock, do you know anything about Gaya Commons

and the work with Oliver and Rory,

and the work with Oliver and Rory,

or should one of us summarize?

or should one of us summarize?

- Nothing, okay.

- Nothing, okay.

So yeah, we work as Gaya Commons

So yeah, we work as Gaya Commons

on Commons-based infrastructure,

on Commons-based infrastructure,

and we're focusing on the legal architecture,

and we're focusing on the legal architecture,

so setting up the trust licensing frameworks

so setting up the trust licensing frameworks

for sharing with the Commons, and on one side,

for sharing with the Commons, and on one side,

and then on a process of getting and operating

and then on a process of getting and operating

a technical layer, sort of bringing together

a technical layer, sort of bringing together

the essential puzzle pieces that are needed,

the essential puzzle pieces that are needed,

but in a more, let's say, in a specific process,

but in a more, let's say, in a specific process,

I'm not gonna go into super detail,

I'm not gonna go into super detail,

but not like this is my best friend,

but not like this is my best friend,

and this is my other best friend,

and this is my other best friend,

now let's build Gaya OS,

now let's build Gaya OS,

but following a more suitable governance process

but following a more suitable governance process

in bringing that operational tech in,

in bringing that operational tech in,

and then the other part being, what was I missing?

and then the other part being, what was I missing?

The finance, the regenerative investment tools,

The finance, the regenerative investment tools,

like structuring, designing regenerative finance

like structuring, designing regenerative finance

or investment methods,

or investment methods,

and also using those to finance that tech layer

and also using those to finance that tech layer

in the long run.

in the long run.

So that's like at the very macro perspective,

So that's like at the very macro perspective,

the three sort of pillar that we're focusing on

the three sort of pillar that we're focusing on

in this next year,

in this next year,

and we have started the three of us

and we have started the three of us

to work together in last summer,

to work together in last summer,

and have had been before that for various years,

and have had been before that for various years,

if not decades, in the same field,

if not decades, in the same field,

but with other constellations.

but with other constellations.

And then we met, at least I met Jeff

And then we met, at least I met Jeff

and Michelle at the World System Forum in January,

and Michelle at the World System Forum in January,

and basically we were holding a session,

and basically we were holding a session,

or co-hosting a session with Michelle on governance,

or co-hosting a session with Michelle on governance,

on the future of governance,

on the future of governance,

and I would say it was,

and I would say it was,

we already, the three of us already had a star crush

we already, the three of us already had a star crush

on Michelle, obviously with all of his research

on Michelle, obviously with all of his research

in the past couple of decades

in the past couple of decades

that has been very much influencing

that has been very much influencing

what we have been writing about,

what we have been writing about,

and then we were very happy to see

and then we were very happy to see

that that crush was reciprocated by Michelle,

that that crush was reciprocated by Michelle,

and him basically seeing

and him basically seeing

how what he had been working on in theory,

how what he had been working on in theory,

we are very much planning on implementing

we are very much planning on implementing

in real life through this infrastructure,

in real life through this infrastructure,

and on a larger scale, basically bringing,

and on a larger scale, basically bringing,

getting from the various local commons

getting from the various local commons

into a cosmolocal network

into a cosmolocal network

of various connected commons.

of various connected commons.

And so this is, I'm just,

And so this is, I'm just,

so that if we don't repeat it three times,

so that if we don't repeat it three times,

I'm just, I just took the liberty of, I hope,

I'm just, I just took the liberty of, I hope,

so I don't know if Oliver or Rory

so I don't know if Oliver or Rory

do you have anything to add that I missed now

do you have anything to add that I missed now

for our collective work?

for our collective work?

No, I think it's a no.

No, I think it's a no.

- I would just say that, yeah,

- I would just say that, yeah,

it's very much focused on the federation

it's very much focused on the federation

of localized efforts through tangible legal licensing

of localized efforts through tangible legal licensing

and organizational and governance methods

and organizational and governance methods

of allowing emergence to happen from bottom up,

of allowing emergence to happen from bottom up,

but then enabling, whether it's interregional

but then enabling, whether it's interregional

or between hyperlocal spaces that form by regions,

or between hyperlocal spaces that form by regions,

allowing these resource information and value flows

allowing these resource information and value flows

to take place with pre-made commons,

to take place with pre-made commons,

presets that belong to the commons

presets that belong to the commons

and allow anyone to opt in

and allow anyone to opt in

and do more by doing it together, basically,

and do more by doing it together, basically,

but actually putting it in practice,

but actually putting it in practice,

not just this philosophy of, yeah, let's work together

not just this philosophy of, yeah, let's work together

and then the reality hits that no one has time for that shit.

and then the reality hits that no one has time for that shit.

But actually, how do you make that practical?

But actually, how do you make that practical?

How do you make it obvious?

How do you make it obvious?

And this is a technical layer,

And this is a technical layer,

like seeing who has what resource where

like seeing who has what resource where

and how each local mission can actually do more,

and how each local mission can actually do more,

rather than less by being connected to other resources

rather than less by being connected to other resources

and people around them.

and people around them.

And a big part of that, as Silvana mentions,

And a big part of that, as Silvana mentions,

is not just knowing that something is there,

is not just knowing that something is there,

but that the stream of right of use,

but that the stream of right of use,

which is where licenses and legal architecture comes in,

which is where licenses and legal architecture comes in,

is in place that you don't actually need

is in place that you don't actually need

to even contact someone for permission to use something.

to even contact someone for permission to use something.

You can just directly tap into it

You can just directly tap into it

based off of the common licensing agreements

based off of the common licensing agreements

that, for reference, people here are deep in the field,

that, for reference, people here are deep in the field,

kind of the evolution of things

kind of the evolution of things

like the peer production license

like the peer production license

and taking it kind of to a next level,

and taking it kind of to a next level,

but looking at hybrids between kind of closed

but looking at hybrids between kind of closed

and open licensing where you favor contributions

and open licensing where you favor contributions

to strengthen the core and give preferential access to peers

to strengthen the core and give preferential access to peers

within a peer production network or in the commons.

within a peer production network or in the commons.

And while you also then allow up to the specific

And while you also then allow up to the specific

specifications of the creator

specifications of the creator

to enable commercial interfacing,

to enable commercial interfacing,

but where that then brings back value

but where that then brings back value

and trans vests back into the peer group

and trans vests back into the peer group

that is creating the productive output in the first place.

that is creating the productive output in the first place.

So yeah, that was slightly more of the same,

So yeah, that was slightly more of the same,

but you get the gist of what we're into

but you get the gist of what we're into

and where we're coming from

and where we're coming from

and probably why we're in the room together now.

and probably why we're in the room together now.

- Do you want to do questions or comments on this

- Do you want to do questions or comments on this

or should I just do two lines about myself

or should I just do two lines about myself

and then hand over to the rest of you?

and then hand over to the rest of you?

- Well, I could ask one quick question

- Well, I could ask one quick question

and then go to a couple of lines about yourself.

and then go to a couple of lines about yourself.

And I really mean quick.

And I really mean quick.

So I'm just trying to figure out where to place you

So I'm just trying to figure out where to place you

in my mental map and Gaia OS.

in my mental map and Gaia OS.

So it seems like the focus is kind of legal,

So it seems like the focus is kind of legal,

a little bit of infrastructure,

a little bit of infrastructure,

some information transmission protocol,

some information transmission protocol,

and then people actually meeting each other.

and then people actually meeting each other.

If you see it differently, that's fine.

If you see it differently, that's fine.

But what would you say in percentages,

But what would you say in percentages,

the focus is, if in your project

the focus is, if in your project

is it mostly on one or the other?

is it mostly on one or the other?

Yeah, that would be helpful.

Yeah, that would be helpful.

- I would say that it's legal governance to a third

- I would say that it's legal governance to a third

and then the stewardship of bringing about

and then the stewardship of bringing about

the tech layer one third and then the economic infrastructure

the tech layer one third and then the economic infrastructure

one third, if that makes any sense.

one third, if that makes any sense.

- Yeah, that's pretty well distributed.

- Yeah, that's pretty well distributed.

- So less, like the gathering the people at this stage

- So less, like the gathering the people at this stage

is more like gathering the infrastructure builders,

is more like gathering the infrastructure builders,

especially on the tech side to a certain extent,

especially on the tech side to a certain extent,

also on the governance side, but that's the focus.

also on the governance side, but that's the focus.

So we're really focusing on the infrastructure

So we're really focusing on the infrastructure

until we have a minimum viable infrastructure

until we have a minimum viable infrastructure

that you can actually onboard land-based projects onto.

that you can actually onboard land-based projects onto.

And so sometimes we engage sort of in a co-fund race

And so sometimes we engage sort of in a co-fund race

where the project is maybe more land-based,

where the project is maybe more land-based,

but there is a portion of the funding going to the,

but there is a portion of the funding going to the,

let's say the meta layer.

let's say the meta layer.

And in that sense, we do engage in that fund race,

And in that sense, we do engage in that fund race,

but it's not our focus to right now go

but it's not our focus to right now go

and sort of bring together many bioregions

and sort of bring together many bioregions

and or things like this because we feel like we need

and or things like this because we feel like we need

to have that minimum viable operating system

to have that minimum viable operating system

or infrastructure to connect at least from ours,

or infrastructure to connect at least from ours,

like in our, where we focus our work.

like in our, where we focus our work.

And I would just add that it's land-based, yes,

And I would just add that it's land-based, yes,

and also like innovation groups,

and also like innovation groups,

so which may not be tied to lands,

so which may not be tied to lands,

so like organizations that have intellectual property,

so like organizations that have intellectual property,

a lot of these ones we're talking to,

a lot of these ones we're talking to,

they wants to bring it into common goods,

they wants to bring it into common goods,

but they find open source licenses too permissive

but they find open source licenses too permissive

and kind of making all of the hard work evaporate.

and kind of making all of the hard work evaporate.

And so there's, yeah, there's this intersection,

And so there's, yeah, there's this intersection,

probably everyone in this room has come across

probably everyone in this room has come across

of the need for commons-based licensing

of the need for commons-based licensing

that brings value back,

that brings value back,

but also allows the innovation to be shared

but also allows the innovation to be shared

and used by those who need it

and used by those who need it

without charging those who are in the commons,

without charging those who are in the commons,

unless there's just like a base cost,

unless there's just like a base cost,

but by charging those who are not peers contributing

but by charging those who are not peers contributing

to the commons.

to the commons.

- Any more questions and take that, you're good?

- Any more questions and take that, you're good?

I think so.

I think so.

- No, that's good, I like dual licensing,

- No, that's good, I like dual licensing,

nice to hear that you're working on that.

nice to hear that you're working on that.

Yeah, maybe you can give us an intro personally

Yeah, maybe you can give us an intro personally

then about yourselves.

then about yourselves.

- Yeah, I'll just do super quick

- Yeah, I'll just do super quick

since I've been talking already for a while.

since I've been talking already for a while.

I'm here in Murin in a tiny mountain village in Switzerland.

I'm here in Murin in a tiny mountain village in Switzerland.

I don't know, Jeff, so I can't figure out

I don't know, Jeff, so I can't figure out

how to press any buttons without exiting the call,

how to press any buttons without exiting the call,

so I'm just gonna do like old fashioned,

so I'm just gonna do like old fashioned,

like turn around my phone and hoping that you see

like turn around my phone and hoping that you see

more or less where I am.

more or less where I am.

So I'm really in the mountains

So I'm really in the mountains

in Switzerland in that tiny mountain village,

in Switzerland in that tiny mountain village,

and this is where my mom grew up,

and this is where my mom grew up,

and since I have the privilege to mostly work remotely

and since I have the privilege to mostly work remotely

right now, I spend winters here,

right now, I spend winters here,

then in summer I am a little bit everywhere,

then in summer I am a little bit everywhere,

which is part of what sparked the creation of this group,

which is part of what sparked the creation of this group,

and the idea of where can we convene this summer

and the idea of where can we convene this summer

while Jeff is here in Europe.

while Jeff is here in Europe.

And aside from this, so that's meteorographically,

And aside from this, so that's meteorographically,

my background is actually

my background is actually

in political science, law, economics, and business.

in political science, law, economics, and business.

So all the things that we are working on right now

So all the things that we are working on right now

are things that I love and that I've always wanted to work in,

are things that I love and that I've always wanted to work in,

and after basically an excursion into more

and after basically an excursion into more

of the social entrepreneurship world

of the social entrepreneurship world

and living and working in West Africa,

and living and working in West Africa,

and also for the German Development Corporation,

and also for the German Development Corporation,

and sort of like seeing that none of this is systemic enough

and sort of like seeing that none of this is systemic enough

the work that I'm doing that it would satisfy me,

the work that I'm doing that it would satisfy me,

I came to where I work now,

I came to where I work now,

and now I do what I love and hope that I can continue

and now I do what I love and hope that I can continue

doing so for a long time.

doing so for a long time.

(laughs)

(laughs)

- Living the dream, man.

- Living the dream, man.

I gotta go, am I still there?

I gotta go, am I still there?

Can you guys hear me?

Can you guys hear me?

- Yes, you're here.

- Yes, you're here.

Do you wanna say who you are,

Do you wanna say who you are,

aside from who that you have to go?

aside from who that you have to go?

- I don't know.

- I don't know.

Yeah, okay, I'll give it a go.

Yeah, okay, I'll give it a go.

(laughs)

(laughs)

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about it.

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about it.

The only person who doesn't know me here is ex-rock,

The only person who doesn't know me here is ex-rock,

which I love the ex.

which I love the ex.

Anyway, Rory, hi, and bye.

Anyway, Rory, hi, and bye.

I have to go pick up my daughter,

I have to go pick up my daughter,

and Jesus, what do I do?

and Jesus, what do I do?

- He sounds very good at being still, as you can tell.

- He sounds very good at being still, as you can tell.

- Yeah, exactly.

- Yeah, exactly.

Okay, that is just me frozen this time.

Okay, that is just me frozen this time.

I do have a poem show for contemplation

I do have a poem show for contemplation

to the point of David-esque stillness.

to the point of David-esque stillness.

Yeah, I help out and try not to make too much of a mess

Yeah, I help out and try not to make too much of a mess

of all of the good work that Adi and Savannah are doing,

of all of the good work that Adi and Savannah are doing,

and I bugged Jeff from time to time,

and I bugged Jeff from time to time,

and poke him when I think he's getting bored.

and poke him when I think he's getting bored.

(laughs)

(laughs)

And I didn't match him in the midst of a brutal custody battle

And I didn't match him in the midst of a brutal custody battle

trying to get out of Germany,

trying to get out of Germany,

and yeah, trying to just survive and approach thrive.

and yeah, trying to just survive and approach thrive.

- And I'll add that Rory is a long time commoner.

- And I'll add that Rory is a long time commoner.

Also, it's a lot of background and experience

Also, it's a lot of background and experience

and innovative finance structuring,

and innovative finance structuring,

and how to bring in impact finance through mechanisms

and how to bring in impact finance through mechanisms

that don't retain ownership,

that don't retain ownership,

but they're allowed to finance things

but they're allowed to finance things

and return investments to investing parties.

and return investments to investing parties.

And I think you've been there for a few decades or something,

And I think you've been there for a few decades or something,

and then I wanna do it for the comments.

and then I wanna do it for the comments.

- Yeah, I also have a PhD in sociology,

- Yeah, I also have a PhD in sociology,

and I don't know, been multi-lingual at different times.

and I don't know, been multi-lingual at different times.

I love techy stuff, particularly material science,

I love techy stuff, particularly material science,

and yeah, and I've just been seen by my daughter,

and yeah, and I've just been seen by my daughter,

so I really gotta hang up.

so I really gotta hang up.

Love y'all, and stay hardcore, and we'll talk soon.

Love y'all, and stay hardcore, and we'll talk soon.

- Bye-bye.

- Bye-bye.

- Nice, and I know Roberto jumped in at some point

- Nice, and I know Roberto jumped in at some point

during Rory's ranting,

during Rory's ranting,

so we're just doing a quick round of intros, Roberto,

so we're just doing a quick round of intros, Roberto,

for people who don't know each other.

for people who don't know each other.

I think you're, perhaps last on the list,

I think you're, perhaps last on the list,

sorry, you missed a few of the folks.

sorry, you missed a few of the folks.

We can give a blitz round,

We can give a blitz round,

but I think you're aware of the grant

but I think you're aware of the grant

and the reason we're all chatting today,

and the reason we're all chatting today,

so we're all just basically getting on the same page

so we're all just basically getting on the same page

if you wanted to get, or actually, sorry,

if you wanted to get, or actually, sorry,

but rock also hasn't gotten yet,

but rock also hasn't gotten yet,

so yeah, and Brian, have you?

so yeah, and Brian, have you?

Geez, I got such a short attention span.

Geez, I got such a short attention span.

Please continue.

Please continue.

- Well, yeah.

- Well, yeah.

- Just say hello to rock, hey.

- Just say hello to rock, hey.

- Yeah, we can do the intros.

- Yeah, we can do the intros.

Maybe I'll go just to be very brief,

Maybe I'll go just to be very brief,

and then before anyone else has to go,

and then before anyone else has to go,

and it's probably late for Michelle as well,

and it's probably late for Michelle as well,

then we can focus down on the task at hand.

then we can focus down on the task at hand.

It's nice to see Roberto here.

It's nice to see Roberto here.

I would say that I've had the closest collaboration with him,

I would say that I've had the closest collaboration with him,

but it was about 10 years ago now.

but it was about 10 years ago now.

But essentially, we work together on defining a protocol

But essentially, we work together on defining a protocol

for a macroeconomic system that runs on,

for a macroeconomic system that runs on,

at the time, it was blockchains,

at the time, it was blockchains,

even though blockchains are evil.

even though blockchains are evil.

But yeah, it's basically the mathematics,

But yeah, it's basically the mathematics,

the philosophy, and the axioms, and the topology,

the philosophy, and the axioms, and the topology,

how you would actually implement a system

how you would actually implement a system

that generates abundance,

that generates abundance,

regenerates the resource base,

regenerates the resource base,

has people interacting pro-socially,

has people interacting pro-socially,

and gives primacy to the commons,

and gives primacy to the commons,

and avoids planetary boundary conditions.

and avoids planetary boundary conditions.

So Roberto could go more in depth on that,

So Roberto could go more in depth on that,

but yeah, we met in the context

but yeah, we met in the context

of maybe some similarly legal governance-focused folks,

of maybe some similarly legal governance-focused folks,

but with a very different energy about them.

but with a very different energy about them.

There was a group called Bit Nation at the time

There was a group called Bit Nation at the time

that was talking about how to do governance on blockchains

that was talking about how to do governance on blockchains

so that you don't need governments anymore.

so that you don't need governments anymore.

That was an exit scam, but luckily,

That was an exit scam, but luckily,

Roberto and I met through that,

Roberto and I met through that,

and then spent a couple of years working pretty in depth

and then spent a couple of years working pretty in depth

on defining an economic protocol,

on defining an economic protocol,

and since then a lot has happened,

and since then a lot has happened,

but I dropped off the map after COVID

but I dropped off the map after COVID

and some personal life stuff,

and some personal life stuff,

and only recently, in the last two years,

and only recently, in the last two years,

have I met up with Michelle,

have I met up with Michelle,

and we've been working together

and we've been working together

on the Cosmo Local Foundation,

on the Cosmo Local Foundation,

but it feels like momentum is building.

but it feels like momentum is building.

And in terms of my background, I'm from Australia.

And in terms of my background, I'm from Australia.

I studied renewable energy engineering,

I studied renewable energy engineering,

but also liberal arts.

but also liberal arts.

So basically everything across the board,

So basically everything across the board,

and I would say I'm more an integrative person,

and I would say I'm more an integrative person,

and super excited to see what we can make of this.

and super excited to see what we can make of this.

I wouldn't say that I'm a techie in the sense that,

I wouldn't say that I'm a techie in the sense that,

like I build technology,

like I build technology,

but I'm interested in getting us their eyes on the price.

but I'm interested in getting us their eyes on the price.

Let's get to a new political economy.

Let's get to a new political economy.

So if I have to do some technology stuff,

So if I have to do some technology stuff,

I'll do that, if we have to build organizations

I'll do that, if we have to build organizations

and community, I'll do that.

and community, I'll do that.

So, yeah, excited.

So, yeah, excited.

Let's, I'll pass it on to maybe you Rock.

Let's, I'll pass it on to maybe you Rock.

- And I quickly, before you pass it,

- And I quickly, before you pass it,

are you still, you're living in Australia, Bainby's,

are you still, you're living in Australia, Bainby's,

just for time zone understandings?

just for time zone understandings?

- I'm in Asia at the moment.

- I'm in Asia at the moment.

I'm going to go back to Australia

I'm going to go back to Australia

for a few months for family stuff,

for a few months for family stuff,

and then the plan is to come in August

and then the plan is to come in August

if people don't run out of kerosene,

if people don't run out of kerosene,

and the planes can still fly,

and the planes can still fly,

then I'll try to get to the, what was it called,

then I'll try to get to the, what was it called,

Jeff, the event in August.

Jeff, the event in August.

- Crypto commons gathering, and the Valley of the Commons.

- Crypto commons gathering, and the Valley of the Commons.

- The Valley of the Commons, yeah.

- The Valley of the Commons, yeah.

So--

So--

- That's like mid-August to end of September.

- That's like mid-August to end of September.

There's going to be about like six weeks of events.

There's going to be about like six weeks of events.

So anywhere in there or the whole time would be fun.

So anywhere in there or the whole time would be fun.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I mean, the trip-- - Where is that?

- I mean, the trip-- - Where is that?

- Austria. - Austria.

- Austria. - Austria.

- Yeah, that's in Austria, the one in Austria, okay.

- Yeah, that's in Austria, the one in Austria, okay.

- Yeah, so the joke of it all from me is I feel

- Yeah, so the joke of it all from me is I feel

like Europe is my center, but I'm not allowed to be there.

like Europe is my center, but I'm not allowed to be there.

- You can, you have a multitude of options

- You can, you have a multitude of options

of marrying either Oliver, myself, or some others,

of marrying either Oliver, myself, or some others,

and resolve that problem.

and resolve that problem.

- I hear Rory single.

- I hear Rory single.

- He's not, I think he's not, is he fully divorced yet?

- He's not, I think he's not, is he fully divorced yet?

I don't know.

I don't know.

- No, he's not-- - Sounds complicated.

- No, he's not-- - Sounds complicated.

- Sounds complicated, yeah.

- Sounds complicated, yeah.

- I get some of the six kids in the deal.

- I get some of the six kids in the deal.

- Okay, and right now you are 100% focusing

- Okay, and right now you are 100% focusing

on your work with Michelle,

on your work with Michelle,

or is there other things--

or is there other things--

- Right now, maybe I'm similar to Jeff.

- Right now, maybe I'm similar to Jeff.

It's like right now there's an opportunity to go crazy

It's like right now there's an opportunity to go crazy

on building some stuff.

on building some stuff.

I would say honestly, the core of what Roberto and building,

I would say honestly, the core of what Roberto and building,

Roberto and I were building, is what I see as the work,

Roberto and I were building, is what I see as the work,

and I want to see that in the world.

and I want to see that in the world.

And everything around that is trying to get us to the vision.

And everything around that is trying to get us to the vision.

So I will jump on a bunch of different projects.

So I will jump on a bunch of different projects.

I'm designing a construction system for affordable,

I'm designing a construction system for affordable,

non-ownership-based housing.

non-ownership-based housing.

That's probably what I'm doing

That's probably what I'm doing

if I didn't have this plan up behind me.

if I didn't have this plan up behind me.

I'm in a workshop here with drill presses

I'm in a workshop here with drill presses

and all this kind of stuff.

and all this kind of stuff.

But yeah, I've been actually very excited

But yeah, I've been actually very excited

about sitting with Jeff as he talks to his AI.

about sitting with Jeff as he talks to his AI.

We're trying to get our space

We're trying to get our space

and what Roberto is working on Hollons together

and what Roberto is working on Hollons together

on top of the reticulum stack, which I think

on top of the reticulum stack, which I think

is a really powerful thing that I'm sure

is a really powerful thing that I'm sure

we'll all talk more about later.

we'll all talk more about later.

But yeah, then with Michelle, basically,

But yeah, then with Michelle, basically,

if we can find funding, which has been the devastating thing

if we can find funding, which has been the devastating thing

that has stopped so much momentum over the last decade

that has stopped so much momentum over the last decade

for so many people that I know, then I'll go and do that.

for so many people that I know, then I'll go and do that.

So if the Cosmo Local Foundation is that vehicle,

So if the Cosmo Local Foundation is that vehicle,

that's on the way to where we need to go,

that's on the way to where we need to go,

but it seems to me, honestly,

but it seems to me, honestly,

that that is the most viable pathway

that that is the most viable pathway

to something real and tangible

to something real and tangible

that can bring some money in the door

that can bring some money in the door

to get us all able to sustain this work

to get us all able to sustain this work

without having to distract ourselves

without having to distract ourselves

with contract work and so on.

with contract work and so on.

So yeah, that's where I figure that as my current focus.

So yeah, that's where I figure that as my current focus.

It's like if we can really put some effort behind this

It's like if we can really put some effort behind this

and make it a machine that brings in the viability,

and make it a machine that brings in the viability,

then I'll work on that.

then I'll work on that.

- Yeah, thanks.

- Yeah, thanks.

- I wanted to bring up, maybe this is a good moment also,

- I wanted to bring up, maybe this is a good moment also,

the one discussion we were having with Jeff

the one discussion we were having with Jeff

is relating to Cosmo Local Foundation,

is relating to Cosmo Local Foundation,

is that we just incorporated a new foundation

is that we just incorporated a new foundation

also in Lichtenstein in the last few months

also in Lichtenstein in the last few months

and we just got charitable status, it's a clean slate,

and we just got charitable status, it's a clean slate,

it's had not much happened to it yet,

it's had not much happened to it yet,

called the Open Systems Foundation.

called the Open Systems Foundation.

And there can be a quite easy and smooth path

And there can be a quite easy and smooth path

for us to figure out a way to,

for us to figure out a way to,

whatever that looks like, to incubate, for example,

whatever that looks like, to incubate, for example,

the Cosmo Local Foundation will be

the Cosmo Local Foundation will be

the official fiscal sponsor entity,

the official fiscal sponsor entity,

but then have Cosmo Local kind of live as a hold on

but then have Cosmo Local kind of live as a hold on

within that, however, it can best look.

within that, however, it can best look.

We have a bank account, we can receive money

We have a bank account, we can receive money

and provide tax deductible donations, which is great

and provide tax deductible donations, which is great

and takes a while to reach and cost money to get to

and takes a while to reach and cost money to get to

and we seem to have passed the threshold now.

and we seem to have passed the threshold now.

So putting that on the table for future discussion,

So putting that on the table for future discussion,

but I think even more broadly than discussing this grants

but I think even more broadly than discussing this grants

today, which is definitely something we should get to

today, which is definitely something we should get to

as well, and now Michelle is here too,

as well, and now Michelle is here too,

but more broadly is like, okay,

but more broadly is like, okay,

what can that look like in terms of, yeah,

what can that look like in terms of, yeah,

the fact that we're pretty much all working

the fact that we're pretty much all working

on the same things, where do we want to

on the same things, where do we want to

create the whole lawns around different parts

create the whole lawns around different parts

and where can the structures that exist support the whole?

and where can the structures that exist support the whole?

- Thank you, that sounds awesome.

- Thank you, that sounds awesome.

Who shall go next?

Who shall go next?

I guess Rock was here next, so over to you.

I guess Rock was here next, so over to you.

Rock, we can't hear you, but you don't seem to be muted.

Rock, we can't hear you, but you don't seem to be muted.

So maybe you've got the wrong microphone enabled.

So maybe you've got the wrong microphone enabled.

- Did that do it?

- Did that do it?

- Yeah, that's good.

- Yeah, that's good.

- And also we can see, or I can see you properly.

- And also we can see, or I can see you properly.

Can you just for one second turn the camera, is that possible?

Can you just for one second turn the camera, is that possible?

- The camera is not working either?

- The camera is not working either?

- Oh, no, no, it's working.

- Oh, no, no, it's working.

- There's a lot of backlight if you can somehow.

- There's a lot of backlight if you can somehow.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- That's good.

- That's good.

- Yeah, so to keep it brief,

- Yeah, so to keep it brief,

I guess what got me into this space, or yeah,

I guess what got me into this space, or yeah,

I guess we met with Michelle about 10 years ago.

I guess we met with Michelle about 10 years ago.

I was very deep into peer-to-peer stuff.

I was very deep into peer-to-peer stuff.

He was doing, yeah, back then,

He was doing, yeah, back then,

and since I've made myself a kind of alternative economy,

and since I've made myself a kind of alternative economy,

generalist of sorts.

generalist of sorts.

Yeah, part of that is also work with Jeff

Yeah, part of that is also work with Jeff

on the Cryptocommons Association side.

on the Cryptocommons Association side.

I don't know how much you're familiar with that work,

I don't know how much you're familiar with that work,

but yeah, we're organizing these events.

but yeah, we're organizing these events.

And last, yeah, community building,

And last, yeah, community building,

doing all sorts of small projects and big ideas

doing all sorts of small projects and big ideas

in the interstices of it all.

in the interstices of it all.

Yeah, we shared some links to some events

Yeah, we shared some links to some events

we're cooking up this year at the Commons Hub.

we're cooking up this year at the Commons Hub.

Yeah, I guess I'm also, like,

Yeah, I guess I'm also, like,

well, I write, I do research.

well, I write, I do research.

I also develop games and performances,

I also develop games and performances,

interactive theater are related to, yeah,

interactive theater are related to, yeah,

envisioning and acting, yeah, alternative to capitalism

envisioning and acting, yeah, alternative to capitalism

or otherwise play with capitalism.

or otherwise play with capitalism.

(audience exclaims)

(audience exclaims)

And yeah, what it's doing to us in the world.

And yeah, what it's doing to us in the world.

And that's been really interesting.

And that's been really interesting.

Yeah, rabbit hole, and that's led to many.

Yeah, rabbit hole, and that's led to many.

Yeah, interesting theories of change

Yeah, interesting theories of change

that I have how play can actually help us change

that I have how play can actually help us change

the world and stuff and pursuing this.

the world and stuff and pursuing this.

Yeah, maybe just to mention,

Yeah, maybe just to mention,

I'm also quite familiar with this funding application,

I'm also quite familiar with this funding application,

specifically, I've done a few projects through it.

specifically, I've done a few projects through it.

I've also led one of these applications myself

I've also led one of these applications myself

before, so yeah, that's helpful at any point.

before, so yeah, that's helpful at any point.

Yeah, just saying, you know.

Yeah, just saying, you know.

- That's great, let's make sure we wrap back to that

- That's great, let's make sure we wrap back to that

and hear more, that sounds awesome.

and hear more, that sounds awesome.

- What would you like to be called again?

- What would you like to be called again?

- Oh yeah, sorry, yeah, my name is Rock,

- Oh yeah, sorry, yeah, my name is Rock,

I just put in Rex Rock, it's a tradition

I just put in Rex Rock, it's a tradition

from this other group that I'm part of,

from this other group that I'm part of,

but yeah, I'm from Slovenia, originally,

but yeah, I'm from Slovenia, originally,

but I'm based in Rotterdam, maybe.

but I'm based in Rotterdam, maybe.

That's a little tidbit as I'm following.

That's a little tidbit as I'm following.

- Awesome, thank you.

- Awesome, thank you.

All right, so we hear from Jeff Roberto, I mean, for a bit.

All right, so we hear from Jeff Roberto, I mean, for a bit.

- Sure, I'll be short, I hope.

- Sure, I'll be short, I hope.

So my background is in artificial intelligence,

So my background is in artificial intelligence,

got the PhD on it.

got the PhD on it.

I started the company, a few companies,

I started the company, a few companies,

and I realized how bad the whole landscape is

and I realized how bad the whole landscape is

in terms of like releasing this cat,

in terms of like releasing this cat,

putting the cat out of the bag

putting the cat out of the bag

in such a shitty economic system,

in such a shitty economic system,

where we're all gonna get a little bit fucked

where we're all gonna get a little bit fucked

by this beautiful super intelligence, so how can it be?

by this beautiful super intelligence, so how can it be?

So yeah, I was looking for alternative solutions,

So yeah, I was looking for alternative solutions,

alternative economic systems,

alternative economic systems,

stumbled on the resource-based economy,

stumbled on the resource-based economy,

and in there, I really saw the light,

and in there, I really saw the light,

and I was like, okay, this needs to happen,

and I was like, okay, this needs to happen,

and instead of feeding the whole system,

and instead of feeding the whole system,

I decided to just put my money, my time,

I decided to just put my money, my time,

my skills onto manifesting it.

my skills onto manifesting it.

That was about 10 years ago.

That was about 10 years ago.

We developed that thing with Brian,

We developed that thing with Brian,

which was a very interesting inspiration

which was a very interesting inspiration

of having a system, creating a system that was not wrong.

of having a system, creating a system that was not wrong.

So I tried not to get something

So I tried not to get something

that manifest all this kind of negative externalities

that manifest all this kind of negative externalities

into everything, really.

into everything, really.

But yeah, but then basically,

But yeah, but then basically,

the key was somebody can write about it,

the key was somebody can write about it,

but how you go and make it.

but how you go and make it.

So seven years ago, eight years ago now,

So seven years ago, eight years ago now,

I started the liminal village as an experimental ground

I started the liminal village as an experimental ground

to test these hypothesis systems,

to test these hypothesis systems,

and realized that ultimately,

and realized that ultimately,

it was not really a technical problem,

it was not really a technical problem,

it was more of a social issue.

it was more of a social issue.

And that we do have the technologies and the tools

And that we do have the technologies and the tools

to actually create all kinds of different things

to actually create all kinds of different things

that we want, but we really need to leave them,

that we want, but we really need to leave them,

really need to, and we need to be able to relate

really need to, and we need to be able to relate

and be able to collaborate with each other.

and be able to collaborate with each other.

So this is, I didn't set up to discover this,

So this is, I didn't set up to discover this,

this is something that just happened.

this is something that just happened.

So now the two passed in seconds at the second stage,

So now the two passed in seconds at the second stage,

but what we're doing here is catalyzing

but what we're doing here is catalyzing

a regenerative network, people and places.

a regenerative network, people and places.

And we're using these technologies as coordination

And we're using these technologies as coordination

to across them.

to across them.

And yeah, check.

And yeah, check.

- Nice, and also you live in liminal village now, right?

- Nice, and also you live in liminal village now, right?

And do some convenings of the commoners

And do some convenings of the commoners

and visioners from time to time.

and visioners from time to time.

- Yeah, so that is the experiment,

- Yeah, so that is the experiment,

and it's basically the place liminal

and it's basically the place liminal

is all between the imagination and reality,

is all between the imagination and reality,

but also commons and private,

but also commons and private,

but also kind of current economic system and the next one.

but also kind of current economic system and the next one.

And basically it's a place where people

And basically it's a place where people

that are trying to develop these kinds of different things,

that are trying to develop these kinds of different things,

this is kind of a safe haven,

this is kind of a safe haven,

because you're not, there is part of the game A,

because you're not, there is part of the game A,

but it's also be at the same time.

but it's also be at the same time.

So for people that are working on this and say,

So for people that are working on this and say,

"Well, I need to pay my rent, I need to pay my bills."

"Well, I need to pay my rent, I need to pay my bills."

I need to pay, and so on and so on and say,

I need to pay, and so on and so on and say,

"Okay, here is a place where you can come

"Okay, here is a place where you can come

"and do what you wanna do

"and do what you wanna do

"without having that load on yourself."

"without having that load on yourself."

So, and I wish that there are just thousands of places

So, and I wish that there are just thousands of places

like this in the world, so that then we can just travel

like this in the world, so that then we can just travel

across and just be where everybody wants to be

across and just be where everybody wants to be

and where everybody can contribute with what they're doing.

and where everybody can contribute with what they're doing.

- Amazing.

- Amazing.

(audience exclaims)

(audience exclaims)

I need to turn down those emoji sounds.

I need to turn down those emoji sounds.

So if we've all had the opportunity to introduce ourselves,

So if we've all had the opportunity to introduce ourselves,

I guess Michelle, if you have anything to toss in,

I guess Michelle, if you have anything to toss in,

otherwise I know it's getting late for a few of us.

otherwise I know it's getting late for a few of us.

So I'm really curious, concrete next steps,

So I'm really curious, concrete next steps,

what are the information bits that we need to get in

what are the information bits that we need to get in

and when do we need to get them in by

and when do we need to get them in by

and who can be responsible for,

and who can be responsible for,

and who can be responsible for moving those forward?

and who can be responsible for moving those forward?

It sounds like we have a few like top contenders,

It sounds like we have a few like top contenders,

but maybe I'll give a moment for anyone

but maybe I'll give a moment for anyone

with more details on concrete next steps.

with more details on concrete next steps.

- I just want to say maybe one thing,

- I just want to say maybe one thing,

just recap the overall situation.

just recap the overall situation.

So I'm already in the project through NANA

So I'm already in the project through NANA

with a kind of like very generalist role.

with a kind of like very generalist role.

And so I convinced her that we had this dream team,

And so I convinced her that we had this dream team,

that we had capacity to basically develop infrastructure

that we had capacity to basically develop infrastructure

for self-provisioning and self-infrastructuring

for self-provisioning and self-infrastructuring

of the cultural commons ecosystem.

of the cultural commons ecosystem.

And she agreed that I could present three people.

And she agreed that I could present three people.

And so what I discussed with Jeff and later with Rory

And so what I discussed with Jeff and later with Rory

is that, so think about three persons that are like

is that, so think about three persons that are like

the proxies, but also work with three persons

the proxies, but also work with three persons

that are like in on the infrastructure level,

that are like in on the infrastructure level,

because the difficulty is we can all,

because the difficulty is we can all,

the system can only pay EU people.

the system can only pay EU people.

So for example, you know, I think Jeff is a genius

So for example, you know, I think Jeff is a genius

with his infrastructure stuff, but he's Canadian,

with his infrastructure stuff, but he's Canadian,

so he can get in.

so he can get in.

And so that's the idea to create like a team of people

And so that's the idea to create like a team of people

with three people who are formerly known to the project

with three people who are formerly known to the project

and they will get paid by the project,

and they will get paid by the project,

I think some kind of salary or monthly stipend,

I think some kind of salary or monthly stipend,

and then that they're willing to share it with other people

and then that they're willing to share it with other people

that also do the work and find some way of making that work.

that also do the work and find some way of making that work.

But so Nana from the Nova Ishka only has to know

But so Nana from the Nova Ishka only has to know

the three names.

the three names.

Rory is already in touch with Nana as a volunteer

Rory is already in touch with Nana as a volunteer

to coordinate the proposal.

to coordinate the proposal.

And we basically need in the short term

And we basically need in the short term

three double paragraph bios

three double paragraph bios

that are geared towards the project.

that are geared towards the project.

So what is it in your experience in life and skills

So what is it in your experience in life and skills

that can fit into that description for the project, right?

that can fit into that description for the project, right?

And then the difficulty is that you amongst yourselves

And then the difficulty is that you amongst yourselves

basically, you know, make some kind of agreements

basically, you know, make some kind of agreements

for kind of a labor commons in a way, right?

for kind of a labor commons in a way, right?

That you're willing to share the income,

That you're willing to share the income,

but of course it's shared work and shared income, right?

but of course it's shared work and shared income, right?

So that's the idea.

So that's the idea.

And yeah, so I have some health issues for the moment.

And yeah, so I have some health issues for the moment.

So I really don't want to get involved

So I really don't want to get involved

in the organizational details.

in the organizational details.

Yeah, I'm just not in a high energy kind of situation right now.

Yeah, I'm just not in a high energy kind of situation right now.

So that's it on my side.

So that's it on my side.

So yeah, go ahead.

So yeah, go ahead.

- Yeah, just, well, we haven't spoken.

- Yeah, just, well, we haven't spoken.

So there's a lot to talk about,

So there's a lot to talk about,

but did you manage to speak with her about the clarification

but did you manage to speak with her about the clarification

and what it means to be from the EU,

and what it means to be from the EU,

whether it's... - Yeah, no, it's EU.

whether it's... - Yeah, no, it's EU.

- It is, no, no, it's EU.

- It is, no, no, it's EU.

- Citizenship, like having a partnership, right?

- Citizenship, like having a partnership, right?

- Yeah, from one of the,

- Yeah, from one of the,

I don't know how many countries there are now in,

I don't know how many countries there are now in,

but yeah, you have to be a citizen of an EU country,

but yeah, you have to be a citizen of an EU country,

not just a resident.

not just a resident.

- I guess Rory will get more details too,

- I guess Rory will get more details too,

but sometimes, 'cause of Sylvain and I also Swiss,

but sometimes, 'cause of Sylvain and I also Swiss,

which is usually applicable in these cases,

which is usually applicable in these cases,

'cause it's in the European economic area.

'cause it's in the European economic area.

- As an associate, if the country has a contract with the EU,

- As an associate, if the country has a contract with the EU,

some kind of agreement, yes.

some kind of agreement, yes.

I didn't ask that, but I assume that is the case.

I didn't ask that, but I assume that is the case.

And I know from experience that,

And I know from experience that,

and even the UK, I'm not sure actually,

and even the UK, I'm not sure actually,

but they have some kind of agreement,

but they have some kind of agreement,

post Brexit that I don't know the details about.

post Brexit that I don't know the details about.

- Is there a way that I could put them?

- Is there a way that I could put them?

- Outside of that, no, like, you just,

- Outside of that, no, like, you just,

if you live in Berlin, it's not enough.

if you live in Berlin, it's not enough.

You have to have EU passport.

You have to have EU passport.

- Is there a way that I can talk with her directly

- Is there a way that I can talk with her directly

to get an answer to that question?

to get an answer to that question?

It might help.

It might help.

- Yeah, I can via Gmail,

- Yeah, I can via Gmail,

combine, you know, just put you in touch with her.

combine, you know, just put you in touch with her.

But so I'm just worried, Brian, that, you know,

But so I'm just worried, Brian, that, you know,

she, like, you know, legally, this is not allowed, right?

she, like, you know, legally, this is not allowed, right?

So I'm a bit afraid that we'll let her know

So I'm a bit afraid that we'll let her know

that we have this complicated internal agreement.

that we have this complicated internal agreement.

- Well, if we have enough people already,

- Well, if we have enough people already,

then I'm okay to stay in the shadows where I like to be.

then I'm okay to stay in the shadows where I like to be.

- Maybe you can just, I mean, we can make sure--

- Maybe you can just, I mean, we can make sure--

- Yeah, and you'll just be part of the pool, yeah.

- Yeah, and you'll just be part of the pool, yeah.

- That Rory asks this question clearly,

- That Rory asks this question clearly,

also, as Oliver said, I'm, well,

also, as Oliver said, I'm, well,

I have Italian nationality too,

I have Italian nationality too,

but I'm a resident of Switzerland, not.

but I'm a resident of Switzerland, not.

So we will make, we will just clarify

So we will make, we will just clarify

that whole nationality question in details.

that whole nationality question in details.

And then I, sorry, I saw Roberto was raising his hand.

And then I, sorry, I saw Roberto was raising his hand.

I can wait.

I can wait.

- Okay, just, I mean, I assume,

- Okay, just, I mean, I assume,

but I need to ask is it a legal person or natural person

but I need to ask is it a legal person or natural person

because we can also, like, in that case,

because we can also, like, in that case,

we could have, like, an association,

we could have, like, an association,

which is fiscal hosting from whatever it receives

which is fiscal hosting from whatever it receives

and then distributes it to whoever's behind.

and then distributes it to whoever's behind.

- Okay, so if I can answer this,

- Okay, so if I can answer this,

so there is already a consortium,

so there is already a consortium,

and I'm not sure if she's willing to take

and I'm not sure if she's willing to take

another consortium in, so that would have to be

another consortium in, so that would have to be

as directly from Nana.

as directly from Nana.

I mean, I think it's legally possible,

I mean, I think it's legally possible,

but you know, yeah, this is something to discuss with Anna.

but you know, yeah, this is something to discuss with Anna.

- How about I? - Whether she wants to...

- How about I? - Whether she wants to...

- Sorry, yeah, I will draft a question in the chat

- Sorry, yeah, I will draft a question in the chat

that captures all of this, and we can pass it on to Rory

that captures all of this, and we can pass it on to Rory

to make sure he asks all of these some questions.

to make sure he asks all of these some questions.

Okay.

Okay.

- And then I wanted to ask Michelle while you're here

- And then I wanted to ask Michelle while you're here

on the, do we have any more concrete deliverables

on the, do we have any more concrete deliverables

or information on what it is that these three people,

or information on what it is that these three people,

including you, or without you?

including you, or without you?

This is my second question.

This is my second question.

- No, not including me, no, so I have...

- No, not including me, no, so I have...

So I will have some kind of generalist role in the project,

So I will have some kind of generalist role in the project,

not 100% clear either,

not 100% clear either,

but then, you know, Rory will have to explain

but then, you know, Rory will have to explain

and negotiate with Nana what exactly can be expected

and negotiate with Nana what exactly can be expected

from us, then she will have to agree to take you in.

from us, then she will have to agree to take you in.

Like in principle, she said yes already,

Like in principle, she said yes already,

you know, there's place for three people,

you know, there's place for three people,

and, you know, once the basic candidacy is in,

and, you know, once the basic candidacy is in,

then, you know, they need to prepare work packages,

then, you know, they need to prepare work packages,

and, you know, it's quite a preparation,

and, you know, it's quite a preparation,

you know, because I have some experience,

you know, because I have some experience,

but last time was five years ago,

but last time was five years ago,

but at that time, you know, you...

but at that time, you know, you...

Yeah, you know, there's a process that needs to be followed,

Yeah, you know, there's a process that needs to be followed,

you know, to describe work packages

you know, to describe work packages

and who's doing the work

and who's doing the work

and how much money each person gets.

and how much money each person gets.

So I don't think they've done that yet,

So I don't think they've done that yet,

or at least she hasn't shared it with me.

or at least she hasn't shared it with me.

But the fact that she accepted three extra people

But the fact that she accepted three extra people

leads me to think that there's flexibility

leads me to think that there's flexibility

still in the, at this stage of the project.

still in the, at this stage of the project.

But it's very time-sensitive

But it's very time-sensitive

because she needs to, you know,

because she needs to, you know,

I don't know how many days now, but it was two weeks,

I don't know how many days now, but it was two weeks,

but I think maybe now it's one week.

but I think maybe now it's one week.

So that's the first question that Rory should ask

So that's the first question that Rory should ask

is how much time?

is how much time?

But so I would say, you know,

But so I would say, you know,

what you need to do at least is make an agreement

what you need to do at least is make an agreement

on who the three persons are,

on who the three persons are,

that are formerly part of the project,

that are formerly part of the project,

and then they need pretty ASAP send there a two-paragraph bio

and then they need pretty ASAP send there a two-paragraph bio

of how the skills fit with that particular project.

of how the skills fit with that particular project.

So not a general bio, but, you know,

So not a general bio, but, you know,

given the two pages that you've seen

given the two pages that you've seen

of the description of the project,

of the description of the project,

what do you bring to the table?

what do you bring to the table?

- Rok, would love to hear from you

- Rok, would love to hear from you

'cause you said you've worked on these projects before as well

'cause you said you've worked on these projects before as well

if you have more in town.

if you have more in town.

We can't hear you again.

We can't hear you again.

- Oh, sorry, sorry about that.

- Oh, sorry, sorry about that.

Yeah, I did some digging in the meantime.

Yeah, I did some digging in the meantime.

It seems that Switzerland is not a participating country

It seems that Switzerland is not a participating country

in the creative Europe scheme this year.

in the creative Europe scheme this year.

Meaning, yeah, they can't really be,

Meaning, yeah, they can't really be,

there can't be organizations, for example,

there can't be organizations, for example,

lying from there.

lying from there.

I don't know whether that translates

I don't know whether that translates

to people residing there possibly or probably.

to people residing there possibly or probably.

They can be associated partners,

They can be associated partners,

but the catch is that associated partners

but the catch is that associated partners

can't receive payments.

can't receive payments.

It's more like a, yeah, a specific kind of partner

It's more like a, yeah, a specific kind of partner

you can have on the project, but they can't be paid.

you can have on the project, but they can't be paid.

That's one thing and the other is, yeah,

That's one thing and the other is, yeah,

as like eventually if we find the three people or however,

as like eventually if we find the three people or however,

I think the emphasis is, sure,

I think the emphasis is, sure,

there is a section where you put in

there is a section where you put in

like all the staff essentially

like all the staff essentially

and there the focus is not so much on a bio per se

and there the focus is not so much on a bio per se

or a more general orientation towards the project,

or a more general orientation towards the project,

but very specific activities that you will do

but very specific activities that you will do

as part of the project,

as part of the project,

which means that essentially we can provide maybe bios

which means that essentially we can provide maybe bios

or some things that we can actually do and execute

or some things that we can actually do and execute

if we get this funding, right?

if we get this funding, right?

EU funding has become very much a lottery.

EU funding has become very much a lottery.

But, yeah, essentially the organizers

But, yeah, essentially the organizers

or the consortium lead would essentially maybe have

or the consortium lead would essentially maybe have

to tweak a little bit these bios

to tweak a little bit these bios

to really fit the content of the proposal they're sending in.

to really fit the content of the proposal they're sending in.

- Rock, what do you mean by consortium lead?

- Rock, what do you mean by consortium lead?

Just somebody we appoint amongst ourselves

Just somebody we appoint amongst ourselves

to be the account person for the opportunity?

to be the account person for the opportunity?

- Well, no, it's what Michelle was saying, right?

- Well, no, it's what Michelle was saying, right?

This whole project, it's like, it's a consortium

This whole project, it's like, it's a consortium

of different international partners.

of different international partners.

And there is this, you know, if I got the name right,

And there is this, you know, if I got the name right,

that seems to be the last name.

that seems to be the last name.

- No, no, I forgot the last name right now.

- No, no, I forgot the last name right now.

But yeah, she's from Nova Iskra.

But yeah, she's from Nova Iskra.

I think it's in Serbia.

I think it's in Serbia.

And so there are two people from Nova Iskra

And so there are two people from Nova Iskra

who kind of lead the whole project.

who kind of lead the whole project.

And then there's a list of four existing partners,

And then there's a list of four existing partners,

which I think includes the P2P lab in Greece,

which I think includes the P2P lab in Greece,

which we used to work with some years ago.

which we used to work with some years ago.

Maybe Rock still does.

Maybe Rock still does.

They would know also more about the project.

They would know also more about the project.

- Yeah, it's Nova Iskra.

- Yeah, it's Nova Iskra.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a, it's a fellow Slavic post-socialist,

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a, it's a fellow Slavic post-socialist,

Yugoslav country.

Yugoslav country.

So like we share some of the same language and things.

So like we share some of the same language and things.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, yeah.

Iskra was the name of Lenin's newspaper

Iskra was the name of Lenin's newspaper

for the Russian revolution.

for the Russian revolution.

- It's kind of indicative.

- It's kind of indicative.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So where does that leave us on a very practical basis?

- So where does that leave us on a very practical basis?

We need, so we need this clarification ASAP,